Lithium PT Cruiser taxi cabs planned for NYC
It seem like the most suitable laboratory for testing an advanced propulsion system is the engine bay of a New York City taxi cab, just ask Ford. Hybrid Technolgies has announced it is in negotiations with the NYC Taxi and Limousine Commision to get its lithium-ion battery-powered PT Cruisers on the streets of NYC ASAP. PTCruizer.com reports the electric cabs will sport a 600-pound, 320V battery pack that can go through 1,500 charges with a range of 150 miles between each plug-in. Cabbies can expect a downtime of six hours between charges. While each EV PT will cost between $50K and $75K, estimated fuel cost savings could amount to $15,000/year. We'll have to wait and see how these EVs hold up to NYC's tough durability test.
[Source: Hybrid Technologies and PTCruizer.com]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
lee clapp 4:36PM (5/16/2006)
typo perhaps????....Chrysler makes the PT Cruiser, not Ford----I do believe..................
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md 5:21PM (5/16/2006)
The PT cruiser has a surprisingly large back-seat. The designers did a superb job of utilizing the interior space, but it is still a small vehicle. Will the batteries fit into the engine bay or under the vehicle tucked into the undercairage similar to GM's hybrid system in its upcoming trucks, or will they intrude on the already limited trunk area?
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k0an 5:28PM (5/16/2006)
lee - they referred to a previous Ford Escape hybrid taxi, they weren't saying that Ford makes the PT.
Anyway, regarding this EV PT... it doesn't make any sense!!! First off, where are they getting the $15,000 in savings per year? A PT gets 22 mpg in the city so factoring in $3/gallon means they would have to drive 110,000 miles per year to save that much money! Plus, that's not factoring in the cost of electricity (I know it's a lot less than gas but still...). Plus, if it's a $75,000 battery pack and it saves $15,000 year (if that's true) then it would pay itself off in 5 years. Guess what happens in 5 years? Time to replace the battery pack! Does anybody know of a lithium ion laptop battery that is still working well after five years? I don't.
I'm not trying to take anything away from EV. It will eventually be an awesome technology to reckon with when battery costs go down and battery densities improve. However, right now, anybody suckered into buying an EV to save money needs some serious help.
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k0an 5:33PM (5/16/2006)
Actually, let me add more to my previous post. I just now noticed the "1,500 charges" part about the battery pack. So, in a perfect environment, this battery pack could last for 225,000 miles. That's assuming that the battery pack is bled of its last bit of juice each time (which is not likely). So, going back to my 110,000 mile figure required to get $15,000 savings per year and you are left with a net loss of $45,000 after two years of use! I predict that whichever taxi company buys these cars will be out of business in three years...
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phil 9:17PM (5/16/2006)
Six hours of downtime between 150 mile trips? Try again, daimler.
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gbh 9:27PM (5/16/2006)
k0an, perhaps you should re-read the blurb up there before doing calculations.
1. It says that the whole cab will cost 50-75K, not the battery pack.
2. If the battery pack is made up of hundreds of individual 'D' size LI batts (which would not be surprising in the least), it will cost maybe 5K to replace the whole battery pack.
3. Not sure where you are deriving 22MPG city for a PT. Maybe a euro-diesel, but I don't know anybody who gets anything like that with a slushbox in an urban environment. Let alone NYC.
4. I'm sure the charger being uses optimized temperature and time algorithms to maximize charge depth and battery life.
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k0an 11:48PM (5/16/2006)
gbh - good points
At $15,000 for a PT Cruiser that still means $60,000 for the EV conversion. I'm betting a lot of that is for the batteries.
The cost to replace the NiMH battery pack for a Prius is $5-7k. That's just a supplemental pack (not a full EV pack) and it's a much cheaper technology that Li-Ion. The pack for this PT Cruiser is probably at least $30,000.
To power an EV the weight of a PT Cruiser for 150 miles you will need a battery pack of at least 30,000 Watt-hours. Since the post said it weighs 600 lbs. I'm guessing it's closer to 50,000 Watt-hours. If you bought Li-Ion packs equaling 50,000 Watt-hours at retail prices you would be spending $60k. I know that these companies aren't dealing with retail prices but the battery pack is still a significant cost for them.
If you can provide a link to information on how buying a couple thousand D size Li-Ion batteries (even at retail prices) equals $5,000 please let me know.
No matter how great the charger is, if the pack is rated for 1,500 recharges, that's about as well as you're going to do. I'm guessing they will need to recharge every days. That means they'll be lucky to get four years out of the pack.
Regarding the PT's mileage: http://www.carsdirect.com/research/compareresults?acodes=USB60CDS011A0,USB10CDS011A0
You can see the current one gets 22 in the city and the 2001 model got 20 mpg. So, say you only get 18 mpg in real-world conditions to be really conservative... $15,000 divided by $3/gallon times 18 miles per gallon still equals 90,000 miles. That's highly unlikely.
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Chris M 12:43AM (5/17/2006)
An electric taxi cab! Wow! This will be a good tough "real world" test of Lithium battery technology. Lithium batteries have the capacity to give electric cars great range and speed, the only remaining questions are of longevity and cost.
Taxi cabs get heavy usage, over 100 miles per 8 hour shift is not unusual, and they may do more than one shift per day. 50K to 100K miles per year is typical for a cab.
Unlikey to use D cells, much larger capacity cells are available and may be cheaper per watthour stored.
The PT Cruiser body was used because it was readily available for testing. A car designed specifically to be a lithium electric car would perform even better.
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RacetrackOwner 8:38AM (5/17/2006)
Chris: "Taxi cabs get heavy usage, over 100 miles per 8 hour shift is not unusual, and they may do more than one shift per day."
The article: "with a range of 150 miles between each plug-in. Cabbies can expect a downtime of six hours between charges."
See the problem?
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Brian 11:29AM (5/17/2006)
Lithium-Ion batteries do not last five years. They'll go three, tops. Lithium is so unstable that, even if you never use the thing, never charge it once, it will be toast in three years. You can't beat them for wieght/power ratio, but they're going to have to come WAY down in price before they make sense in EVs.
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Nick 1:41PM (5/17/2006)
"Try again, daimler."
I don't think Daimler had anything to do with these electric PT conversions. The Company behind this is called Hybrid Technologies.
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gbh 2:14PM (5/17/2006)
Honda Insight uses "D" config NiMH, 20 modules of 6 cells each. NiMH D cells are under $2.50 each for quality units in bulk, retail. Cheap Chinese NiMH are under $1/per in quantity, retail. What Toyota and Honda charge a retail customer for a battery pack is far more about parts profit margins than actual cost.
(Hint: If you build a car from new parts, it would cost you 3-5X sticker.)
You can Google those prices up yourself, or just go to Harbor Freight.
Though I doubt there's 50Kw in that rig,
lets just run real quick with that figure...
600# = 272,400g
D LI= 45g
D LI= 2.3Ah 3.2V
D LI= 8.51W
6000 cells x 45g = 270,000g
6000 cells x 8.5w =51,000 w/h
6000 cells
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Charles 8:40AM (5/18/2006)
PT Cruiser has always looked a little like a London "Black Cab" to me.
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Roy 12:54PM (5/19/2006)
Interesting concept - electric motor should be much smaller than gas. Some batteries under hood, rest beside driver, maybe? If they were set up as swappable 50 lb packs, then spare batteries could be charging. Swap the packs would be like fill the tank.
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Charles Clifford 11:11AM (5/20/2006)
If the finished product was, after these trials, and a couple of years' production: a $50,000 to $75,000 car with all these above stated characteristics, then the above critics might be right. But the $50,000 to $75,000 was for a limited production (and the improvements will be coming!). The same people, over and over have sought to kill production of alternatives to our gas-guzzlers. They seek to kill these vehicles, too. Proceed onward with your trials; let these self-interests watch as we move this country into the future!
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James W. England 11:26AM (5/20/2006)
Reading the brief article, and then the comments, it would seem that the point is being missed. They are using the demanding NYC taxi service as a TESTING LABRATORY.
They are using custom built cars to test a concept. It is not realistic to look at the costs of the testing. If the platform is feasible, in the long run production prices would drop, as fuel prices continue to rise.
As to the issue of battery life, the batteries of today are much improved over the batteries of five years ago.
I forsee the point where a vehicle would be covered in modern-flexible photovoltic materials that would provide a continuous "trickle charge" to the batteries. Would it eliminate recharging? No, but it would probably extend operating range and reduce stationary recharge times.
My primary concern with using the PT as an EV platform is its weight of 3,800 pounds. A Scion XB would seem to be a better choice.
The future IS NOT oil, it is time to get serious about alternative fuels and transportation.
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philip katcher 11:49AM (5/20/2006)
can anyone READ
this is a TEST vehicle
trying out a new technology, NOT production.
give it a chance
sure downtown makes this unrealistic BUT not if the company hada fleet for rotation. the fuel savings would be awesome IF this thing works. We need to TEST new ideas and NOT burn oil for everything
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Val 9:00PM (5/22/2006)
After all these super smart people put in their expertise, my comment is about reality. The car weighs too much and the battery is too big. Lighten the car and downsize the battery. Make the cars able to carry no more than three people, One in the front and two in the back. Also, MPH should not be more than 35.
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Mike 9:11PM (5/22/2006)
I think this cab will be as big a hit as Al Gore's low flush toilet! I'll bet the meter on one of these will charge $$$$ faster than light- hold-on to your wallets!
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Charles Banga 9:36PM (5/22/2006)
When this thing is sorted out you will pull into the gas station the low battery pack will come out and a full one will be put in.No down time.When you pull into the mall,parking lot or even McDonalds you'll plug in for an appropriate fee.This will become the mother of all loss leaders.Bring a carfull to Great Adventure and plug in for nothing.
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